Paul Tinker, founder of the Construction Training Academy, shares why professionalism is crucial in the construction industry and why builders need strong business skills to thrive. He highlights the wealth of opportunities in property investment and explains how mindset, courage, and strategy are essential for success. Paul introduces his Clarity Framework for producing transparent, trustworthy quotes, drawing on lessons from his military and corporate background. He also discusses the importance of training and community in overcoming obstacles, the role of SSAS pensions in wealth building, and practical ways to generate income from property without ever picking up a hammer.
In this episode of WealthTalk, Christian Rodwell sits down with Paul Tinker, founder of the Construction Training Academy. Paul shares his journey from a disciplined career in the army to delivering over £300 million in construction projects and eventually launching a business focused on training and mentoring others in the property and construction sectors.
Paul uncovers the biggest overlooked opportunities in the industry—emphasising the importance of business acumen over technical skill, and the value of bridging the gap between property developers and construction professionals. He introduces his “CLARITY” framework for project pricing and management, which has helped clients dramatically increase their project values and professionalism.
Listeners will hear Paul’s practical insights on creating income streams beyond hands-on building, such as consulting, project management, and pre-construction services. He also discusses leveraging pensions for property investment, the critical role of mindset and community, and lessons learned from both failures and successes along his entrepreneurial journey.
Paul’s story is a testament to the power of systems, resilience, and the willingness to pass on knowledge to others. The episode wraps up with actionable advice for newcomers to property or construction, ideas for building recurring income, and details on how to connect with Paul and his thriving community.
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Speaker 1 (00:00.206)
I genuinely believe the most successful construction companies are not ran by builders. We had a 50 year old builder here at the weekend on a course and I was going through how he should present a quotation and he'd been doing it literally post it note with a number on it there's your quote and when I gave him an 18 page document demonstrating professionalism demonstrating transparency and giving the customer level of comfort his head was blown. We have a guy in my digital mastermind who his average priced quote was 3k and he closed 158 grand 100 % mindset first
Courage 2nd, Strategy 3rd
Speaker 3 (00:34.318)
Welcome to this week's episode of Wealth Talk. My name is Christian Rodwell, the Membership Director for WealthBuilders, joined today by our founder, Mr. Kevin Whelan. Hi, Kevin.
Chris, good to be with you again. And I'm not talking about inheritance taxes.
No, no, well, definitely been covering that in the past few weeks and still got many people downloading our guide. So if you haven't already done that, head to wealthbuilders.co.uk forward slash IHT. And just a quick recap, Kevin, what people can expect from that guide.
You know, my passion is subject for the moment, isn't it really? Helping people understand how they can reduce and mitigate inheritance tax given the government's introduced it for pensions and also why you need to know who the executors are in your will so you don't lumber them with a massive problem or even a fine in the future because they don't understand pensions and who really does apart from professionals like us. So, so definitely listen to those. So I'm going to steal your line.
If you've got a pension and a family, you definitely need to get the guide.
Speaker 3 (01:36.418)
Yeah, wealthbuilders.co.uk forward slash IHT head there after you listen to today's episode where we have a special guest joining today, Mr. Paul Tinker. He's the founder of the Construction Training Academy. And whilst we will be primarily talking about property today, there's definitely an emphasis on the importance of being business smart. And I guess a lot of people who fall into, well, lot of people who fall into property investing and perhaps then, you know, trades, refurbishing.
don't necessarily have a business mind, they haven't necessarily been in business before. And so Paul has found that he's actually got real skill for helping people to professionalise their businesses. And that's what we'll be talking about today.
Good word. Often you hear people in business and they're definitely amateurs. Hobbyists turn into, you like something, you turn into a business. You do a bit of property, you turn it into a business, but it's really still at an amateur level. I think to make any asset work, to maximize the impact on your wealth, need to be the best you can be and professionalize it. And sometimes that means adding skills, adding a way of thinking.
putting processes in place that you're not naturally gifted to be able to create, but working with other people who can help you do it is a really good thing to do. And then once it's done, more often than not, it's far from processed, done forever and makes your business, if you've got a trading business, more sellable, or it makes your property business one that isn't sucking your time from you. You know, so you can go to the beach and relax with the phone off rather than
you know, there's something gone wrong with a need for a tenant or anything like that. So property is something to focus on if you're doing property, to get it to a place where it can create that recurring income and then find a way that you don't need to be spending your time maintaining it as far as possible. And Paul does a great job of explaining how his unique take professionalizes people. teaches how to create a really solid property business, not a property.
Speaker 2 (03:47.318)
Investment.
should probably head on over to our conversation today with Mr. Paul Tinker.
Paul, welcome to Wealth Talk today. How are you? Very good. Thank you. Now, Paul, you're the founder of the Construction Training Academy. You deliver construction management services to property strategists to ensure effective, efficient and compliant refurbishments, conversions and extensions. And the result of that is increased margins, less stress and compliance with legislation. A few headline figures, over 300 million pounds in successful project deliveries and over three
I'm good mate, thanks to you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:23.106)
thousand refurbishment projects delivered. So I think good credentials for today's conversation, Paul. Let's get straight into it. So you've already supported thousands of property developers, professional. What's the big opportunity in construction and property that most people are overlooking right now?
Oh, great question. I do need to write down your intro though, because it's better than mine. I like how you introduced me. That was great. I think there's a couple of opportunities. First and foremost, just being better at business rather than shoving plaster up a wall or laying bricks. leave school to figure out that they can charge money for working with their hands, but nobody ever teaches them how to run a business. Nobody ever teaches them financial management and their business.
savviness or lack of business savviness is the thing that actually finishes them off. And to go from being a skilled person to becoming a business person is very massive gap, if you like. So I think that the first opportunity is to become more business savvy. And in doing so, you immediately put yourself ahead of your peers. And I'm talking now, the specific part of the industry I'm speaking about now is in the domestic sector.
those working for homeowners, private customers, et cetera, et cetera. But in the commercial space, not in commercial property, but in the wider and bigger part of the industry. So working for property developers, working for local authority, as in that side of the commercial world. The huge opportunity becomes in taking hold of the entire process, the entire project, because the biggest disparity and failing I see between
property developers and the construction industry is the bridging of both industries as they come together. So if I'm a developer on this hand and I'm an electrician on this hand, the bridge in the middle that's required from a compliance and efficiency perspective, to bring those two things together, generally speaking, the property investor takes the reins and they do it really badly. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. I mean it in that there's no training, there's no...
Speaker 1 (06:33.73)
There's no understanding of industry. There's no understanding of the complexities involved with overlapping and entwining and collaborating. that bridge in the middle, because it's done badly by property investors, developers, strategists, because that happens, that's where the opportunity sits, in my opinion.
It's very clear when you go to your website, Paul, that you focus on helping three different avatars. Also, you've got property developers and investors, then all trainers, coaches, and mentors as well. Can you share more about each of these, please, and exactly how you help them?
Yeah, I mean, at the moment, am really, really as in currently in this moment in time, I'm really doubling down on businesses purely because I believe there's an immediate need for that service right now. And that's going really, really well. I also, as you mentioned, trained property developers, property investors to become project managers, to become main contractors should they wish, to be able to compliantly and efficiently manage a refurbishment project. And I do that through a training course and or one-to-one mentoring thereafter.
If somebody wants me as a consultant in a business, I'll go represent them. And I've done that for a number of years now. When it comes to the training side of things, there's a brand new product that I'm launching just this year. And what I see and believe in this, in the space is that we have got lots and lots of people that are developing a skillset over a period of time. Like just like your SSAS product, just like my training product for the property developers. And I see people, they develop all of this knowledge. Now,
we as a human race have a duty to pass that knowledge on to the next generation, to the next tranche of people, as it were, coming through. And I truly believe that everybody is a mentor. I genuinely believe that. There is somebody somewhere looking up to somebody somewhere. And I believe that that person has a duty to help that other person. I'm going a long-winded way about this, telling you this, but it was that.
Speaker 1 (08:32.984)
connection that I saw like, people need a structure to be able to come a mentor to be able to sell them a product or a service that has a tangible value with a recognizable measurable outcome. And not just I'll be your mentor, I'll be your coach, because those things don't have outcomes, not have outputs. Now, if I'm saying to a person that wants to become a coach or a trainer, I'm saying to them, look, I'm going to help you build a six figure training business over the next 12 months. That person can now
connect to a result to an outcome what they're going to get at the end of the 12 months. And then that person during that 12 month period is going to design and define what their promise to their customers is going to be. Maybe that's going to be, I'm going to help you build a seven figure portfolio. Maybe it's maybe it's going to be, I'm going to help you build a seven figures, SAS balance or whatever that becomes. I'm help you invest in crypto or silver or precious metals or the stock market or whatever that is with a measurable, tangible outcome.
That's where the birth of the, I've called it train the trainer, the train the trainer mastermind came from.
I'm sure you get this as well, Paul, but for many trainers and coaches, consultants, you often get the question, okay, well, you know, if you're so good at this stuff, you know, why are you teaching other people? Why aren't you out there doing it yourself? What's your response to that?
Well, I am doing it myself is the first thing. Secondly, because I've done it for a number of years. And then thirdly, because we've got a duty to pass on the torch. the one thing I despise about people's view of the training industry is that they look at it and they go, well, he's making money out of training others. Well, yeah, I am, because that's my business. You're making money out of property. don't see why.
Speaker 1 (10:16.322)
People have, I'm not saying you did this, I don't see why people have got this like negative connotation to people that build a business around training. You know, we've got this product, we've got this service that helps other people get a result. Like that's got value.
Let's break it down then. Our listeners are going to be business owners, property investors, some people who are still working full-time, but they've got one foot in that entrepreneurial camp as well. What are some of the real ways then, Paul? Someone could generate income from construction or property without being a builder or developer themselves.
Yeah, that's interesting. That question came up actually over the weekend on a different podcast I was on. And I actually believe that the most successful, and I really shouldn't say this out loud, but I will. I actually genuinely believe that the most successful construction companies are not run by builders. builders, generally speaking now, of course, I don't like to generalize, but I'm going have to. Generally speaking, they've done something a certain way for a long period of time.
And to undo that thinking is really, really tough for me as a coach. You know, when I, an example, we had a 50 year old builder here at the weekend on a course, and I was going through how he should present a quotation. And he'd been doing it for 20, 30 years, whatever it was, literally post it note with a number on it, 25 grand. There you go, Mr. Klein, there's your quote. And he saw nothing wrong in that at all. And when I gave him an 18 page document to be able to facilitate him,
increasing his conversion ratio, demonstrating professionalism, demonstrating transparency and giving the customer level of comfort they're going to what they're going to get for their money. His head was like blown like that is so obvious and simple to me. But his head was like he could not believe the impact it was having on him listening to it rather than not even not even him actually using it and putting it into practice.
Speaker 1 (12:11.138)
But just listening to the theory of why that works and why his, why my process works better than what his does. Now I know for a fact that he'll go away and he'll, he'll carry on doing this, the post-it thing. And it will take me lots and lots of check-ins. And I know this from previous experience to say, how did you get on using my framework? How did you get on using my framework? And that'll be six or seven times before he actually uses it. Whereby, whereas someone that's not done it before, not done this before.
and they just get my guide and follow my instructions. They have got no preconceived idea of whether this works or not. They just do the thing I'm showing them to do. So I genuinely think that the best construction business owners were never a builder. Like I'd go as far as to say that most successful construction companies, I don't actually know this to be true. I'm going to have to find out now. I'll bet the owner of David Wilson Homes, Barrett Homes, all your tier ones, all the main contractors out there.
I bet the owners are not builders. I'll put money on it. I hope they're not now.
allowed. You referenced a framework then Paul, can you just give us an idea of kind of what the components of your framework are?
Yeah, of course. So breaking down a price, I use what's called the clarity framework. And rather than we're just going in for, you know, a 25 grand, I hope you can actually see that 25 grand quote, I break it down into eight steps. And the first thing is the clarity is the acronym. So C is a complete list of inclusions. And we really break down what I'm going to do for that money. And I'll give you a great analogy at the end of this, what we're going to do for the money. The L stands for list of exclusions.
Speaker 1 (13:44.684)
listed exclusion. So things that we're not going to do for the money. So we've got everything that's in and everything that's out. Like if we don't list out things that are out, your client or the client will assume that everything that you deem to be out is in because you've not specified. That was a bit convoluted. I'm sure that made sense. The A is any assumptions made by the customer or by the builder is the requirements, any requirements made by that the builder is required.
Ciao
Speaker 1 (14:12.526)
like off-street parking, use of your toilet, use of your power, use of your water, all of these things. is the investment total, so the fees, what it's going to come to. It's important that it's put there before, after the other things, because we've added value first and then describe the investment total. is the terms and conditions, so payment, when payments can be made, how much is going to be made, when it's going to be made, and how it's going to be made. And then the Y is your special considerations.
And that's things like 24 seven access, the things that stand you out from your competition. So that's the framework. And when people say to me, I'm not doing all that work, I go, so you're just going to carry on with this approach. Now imagine going into a Michelin star restaurant, walk into the front door, being greeted by the waiter and he sticks a menu under your nose and he goes, there's your menu. There's nothing in the menu. It's just blank. And then you say to him, well, how much is it? And the waiter says 200 pound a head.
And you go, well, what do I get for my 200 pound a head? And the waiter goes, I'm not telling you that. Why do you want to know how much profit I make? What would you do in that situation? You'd run away. Of course you'd run away. And you'd want to say to the waiter, look, I want to know what courses I get. Am I getting a starter, am I eating a pudding? Are my drinks included? And what happens if I want any extras on top of that? They're very basic things, but we don't transpose that same thinking into the construction industry, which is absolutely wild.
but it makes total sense when I deliver this to them in a training.
Have you got any other kind of real life examples of someone who actually has grasped that and taken that away and, you know, seen some measurable benefits? Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:48.43)
I'm going to big myself up now because it's my best example. We have a guy in my digital mastermind who is his average priced quote was 3k. And since working with me for the last is in week nine now, but after week, I was about five or six, used the clarity framework and he closed 158 grand.
So what do you think is the difference then between those who make it work and those who struggle? it mindset? Is it strategy or something else?
100 % mindset first, courage second, strategy third.
You're a big believer in community and collaboration, aren't you? And you built a pretty massive Facebook group. Tell us a little bit about that.
grew organically. I had any intention of growing that thing at all. It originally, I started it and put a few mates in there that were on the tools that I wanted to help and that was it. It wasn't even called what it's called now, I changed the name of it over time. I think it was called Builders Chat or something to start with or some words to that effect. it eventually became the training business. We got 7,200 members in there now, which is incredible. I just absolutely love, not what I do, I love seeing the results that people get.
Speaker 1 (16:56.436)
from implementing the things that I teach them. There's no better feeling.
Let's talk about some of the other barriers that you see. Either people that you're working with, but what are some of the things that just stop people from being successful or even taking that next step?
that? I think we go back again to mindset, courage and strategy is those three things that you know, whilst those three things are going to make you a success, they're also going to be the things that hold you back to like we you know, we all wake up on days and have you know, today is not going to be a good day. And when you wake up with that thought, guess what, it's, it's not going to be a good day, you know, we've got a set intention for the day and the
And really, Billy, I hate all the the like woo woo stuff me I can't stand it because I just sound like a broken record like everybody and saying the things that everybody else says. But they're so they're so true. You know, with you have you've got to believe in you or nobody else is going to do like that's such a cheesy thing to say but it's so true.
a good time for us to dip into your background for our listeners just to understand perhaps where some of this resilience and this courage comes from. You had a background in the army and then the corporate world. What lessons have you learned from both of those areas?
Speaker 1 (18:19.084)
you say, I was 14 years in the forces where the army is a very disciplined, structured, regimental machine. And I joined that from, I didn't go straight from school. I got into a bit of trouble at school and then that's along the story. I joined the forces and they straightened me out, if you like. I served 14 years and became a section commander and churning instructor as I left. And then
As I left 14 years in, I went straight into corporate construction management. I didn't have the domestic transition that most people do. So I went straight into project management and I got a job for a company called Bullet Construction. They don't exist anymore, but they were a social housing refurbishment contractor. So was kitchens and bathrooms for council houses as it were, as it were back then. The scheme was called CESP, the Community Energy Savings Program, I think it stood for, which meant that we had to take...
council houses and bring them up to the government defined standard called Decent Homes, which was everybody got a new kitchen, everybody got a new bathroom. So this 300 million and these 3000 projects, that's where they came from. So I was delivering like 10 a week, 10 different projects a week. And I just did it in a systematic, structured, disciplined way because I knew no other way. But the army had taught me systems, process, procedures. The army had taught me that. And...
I go into corporate construction and I quite simply embedded that same level of thinking into corporate construction. But all of my peers, they were all winging everything. You know, was all five packet phone calls. They're all busy, stressed, air falling out, all aging beyond, you know, their actual age. it was, you look at that situation and go, why, why, why are you doing it that way? Just do it this way. All of my peers, there was like,
in that business, was 13 of us all delivering projects all 10 a week. So there's a lot of volume going through the business. And but I was the black sheep, not not them. So, you know, they were all doing it in a way that I perceived to be wrong. And I'm looking and observing watching them all stressed out whilst I've got a process. And my peers, well, the management, the management above me moved me on to another side because I was creating this angst around doing it properly.
Speaker 1 (20:38.382)
So they moved me into a new site where there was no one else. It was just me. And I was delivering a tower block of flats. was the number one on site. And I used the same methodology to deliver this job. Went really, really well. And then I got headhunted from another national contractor and I went to do the same for them. With them, I was a national operations manager for delivering projects up and down the country rather than just in a region. So I had projects in Scotland, Wales, England, right at the very north of Scotland up in Wick, right down to...
My furthest south was probably Caerphilly in South Wales and I had a very, very small job down in Torquay, but they weren't at the same time. Anyway, used to fly up and down the country in and around, tricking it on sites, using this same process that I had devised.
The stress of the travel, not the job, really, really, really started to impact my health and my relationships with my family. So was spending from Sunday afternoon, I would leave to get to site and I wouldn't come back until very, very late on Friday. So was getting, I was very tired on Friday night. So I was getting Saturday day and Sunday morning at home. That was it. So I was really disconnected with the family and all of the travel.
was really, really tiring. I mean, it sounds quite, it sounds quite nice to be flying around the country, but it's not, it's shit. And I was boozing a lot at the time, functioning alcoholic at the time. And it just came a time in 2018 where it was, I can't keep doing this. I've got to like wake up. So I went into, I didn't go and hand in my notice. I told my manager the crack and what I wanted to do. Said I want to get into property. So.
I decided in that moment that I was going to leave and set up my own property business. So, but coming from a construction background, I found a building and I was about to leave my corporate role and going to buy this property. I didn't know anything about property investing, nothing at all. I was a builder and I saw this opportunity. I had some money in the bank and I saw this opportunity. thought, if I set up a construction company, I'll just do the work myself. I'll jump on the trowel and it's going to be an efficient way to deliver it. So I started my construction company full in the knowledge or full safe in the knowledge that I was going to buy this
Speaker 1 (22:50.466)
buy this building and convert it myself, me and the lads. The property fell through long story short and I didn't buy it. And now I'm out of a job. And it was like, no, what am I going to do now? So I put, you know, the old, the little business cards used to put in Tesco's slot that said builder for hire and stuff like that. I did one of them. I put one of them in Tesco. This lady, Emily, name was, she rings up and says, I've seen your card in Tesco window. Can you come and hang a TV on my kid's bedroom wall? And I was like, yeah, sound.
So went around, that was my first sale. She said, how much do you want? I said 40 quid. And she went, is that all? And I I was like, I could have charged more. And again, this is me now. I'm not sales savvy in the moment. And I got 40 pound cash a man. thought, is amazing. Like I'm working for myself now. I'm bearing in mind I'm 42 years old at the time. Looking at this 40 quid and going, I can make something of this. Phone goes again, garden wall came in.
980 quid was my second sale. Never forget that either. I turned up and I had a Range Rover at the time. I didn't have a time to get a van or a mixer or anything. So I hired a mix. I turned up in my Range Rover to build this garden wall straight away. was like 900 quid day and off. And I'm thinking there's something in this. So I started to grow my construction business from there. I a couple of extensions, a couple of HMOs. Started going to property networking events and my clients, my dream clients were everywhere.
property developers buying land, buying property that wanted to refurbishments. And I'm sat there thinking, wow, this is like, this is a gold mine. All these people are standing up at these networking events and saying, I need a builder, I need a builder. And I'm like, hello. So I started pricing up these works for people. And I don't even know if I'm answering the question, but we're into it now. We got going and as I started delivering these projects for these property developers, I very quickly went, you lot don't know what you're doing.
You don't know how to engage me. don't know whether I'm being efficient. You're not being efficient. You're certainly not being compliant. And the cost of borrowing and the cost of asset holding that you're enduring right now must be absolutely killing you. And I started doing like some one-to-one coaching with these folk. Then I went on holiday to Turkey with the wife and I was moaning about this process. They're taking up so much time for me helping them out like this. And she said, you need to either stop moaning or start a product or a service that helps them with this. And that's where my training business was born.
Speaker 1 (25:13.366)
on a beach in Bodrum in Turkey. So we started the business from there. We just started delivering training and helping people to deliver projects. Have I answered your question? Don't even know what the question was anymore.
No, it was about the lessons from both your days in the army and corporate. I think, yeah, interesting to see how it evolves. Always interesting to know where the seed of a new business starts because it's always identifying problems. It's seeing something that isn't working and then being the entrepreneur that says, I can fix this. Now, of course, along that journey, there's been highs. I'm sure there's been some lows as well. Have there been any particular painful moments, failures that actually, on reflection, have shaped things for you?
Yeah, there's being of course, there's being highs, there's being lows. Like I'm the opposite of risk averse. I never know what the word is. My wife says I'm reckless, but I wouldn't say that. You know, if I see an opportunity, tend to go all in on the opportunity before actually finding out whether there's a need for it. Good example being I launched an online mastermind product in COVID. So, know, the world got locked down and I thought, right, the world needs this digitally.
So I created my mastermind online and put it up for sale. It cost me about 65 grand to build it with all the software and time embedded and time invested into it, consultants that I used, videography, the editing, everything else. And I made zero sales and it was like, wow, what have I done? Like, how am gonna get this money back? And I just had to write it off. But it was a great learning for, you know, that learning.
springboarded into my digital mastermind that I run now. Like the first thing I did was market tested the demand. That was the very first exercise, which was unusual for me to do that. I normally, as I say, I'm quite reckless and just, let's just do it. Let's just try it. you know, from...
Speaker 3 (27:08.078)
Was that the reason, sorry to interrupt you there Paul, was that the reason why you think the first product didn't sell because actually you serving a need that was big enough?
Correct, yeah. Yeah, I wasn't serving a need. know, people's need was not to learn from me during COVID, it was to get outdoors. You if I had my time again, looking back, I would have definitely gone into the dust mask industry, and I definitely got into the gloves. And I would have created like probably an online networking community group. That's probably what I would have done because people craved human connection back then. But I didn't see that. I kind of just went, right, you all need this, what I do online. And they didn't. No one wanted it. No one interested.
Let's get into a little bit more of the wealth talk here is about generating multiple streams of income, it's about building wealth and there's capital and there's cash flow. We'd like to focus a lot on cash flow because that's money that you know is coming in every month, money you can spend allows people to become financially secure and financially independent. What are the two areas of capital and cash flow that you see mostly in the areas of construction and someone who wants to build additional recurring income streams?
What are some of the ones that you might recommend people, folks?
Well, there's lots of different product avenues as opposed to like streams of income, if you like, when it comes to creating product funnels, if you like. One being charging customers for what I call the pre-con service, which is we sit down with a customer, let's say they got HMO conversion and we do the design work with them. We pull the drawings together and just take hold of the whole pre-construction process. all the compliance documents and paperwork together.
Speaker 1 (28:48.046)
specification writing, schedule writing, and putting together a cost plan, bill of quantities, lots of different things that are required prior to a project starting instead of just getting keys and ringing our uncle to come around and start swinging slidejammers around and then start panicking for an electrician as it were. That would be a typical process. So there's the actual service themselves. You've got a consulting stream of income as well, accompanied viewings on projects with investors.
And a nice one is pricing up refurbishment projects for estate agents prior to them going on the market. Now this takes some work, but I think it's a really valuable service. And I'm always hammering on at my guys to do this. So into the estate agent doors and saying, look, Mr. and Mrs. estate agent, I can see if there's properties of apps come on the market or whatever that might be. Or I can see you've got one on the market that's not selling. Allow me to go around and price it up for you. Then you can use my quote to then.
issue to anybody that's coming to view. And it works for twofold in that the estate agent can pay you for it, or you can just, it allows you to get ahead of your competition and get in your court in front of someone before they even ask for it.
Another big opportunity and why WealthBuilders and yourselves, think are a good fit is the untapped opportunity of developers tapping into their pension funds. I know you have SSAS pension yourself, Paul, and this is something that many people are still not aware of. Obviously, we're doing our best to spread the word about the SSAS pension, but with commercial property, with land, obviously that lends itself really well to being able to leverage funds that are in pensions.
Yeah, absolutely. started 20, I think it was 2022 that I tapped into my pension and it was off the back of a talk I heard at a networking event and I forget who the speaker was. It was a networking event in the Northeast, the property thing with Paul Millian and Anthony Boyce up there, if you don't know them lads. They ran an event and the speaker was a SSAS speaker and I was listening to him and I was thinking, I'm pretty sure I've got a corporate pension from my old job. And the guy said, he said,
Speaker 1 (30:58.006)
If it's not worth 85K, I disagree with this by the way, if it's not worth 85K, you might as well just leave it where it is. So I kind of went, yeah, I don't think I've got 85K in mind. Or was it 65? I can't remember. I can't remember the number he shared. He said, for it to be worthwhile, it needs to be of a certain pot. So I went back to my previous employer and said, I've got no idea how much is in my pension. I genuinely didn't know. And you get the statements with projections, but I didn't know what the current value of the pot was.
And they said, you've got from memory, think I had 82 in this one. And then I thought, hang on a minute. I worked for another company before that as well. So I went back to them and they said, you've got 30, whatever it was in this one. So I was like, I've got a hundred and odd grand sat here in pensions. And I actually couldn't believe it. And I started to think this has got to be a con. This has got to be a scam. So I went through the entire process with the administrator, is that the right language? And
There was like, no, no, no, no, this is right. This is right. So we'll do all the paperwork for you. And I'm thinking, hang on. So you're not only have I got this money, you're going to get it for me as well. And they're like, yeah, there was a fee to pay per pension. I think it's 1200 quid from memory. So there was two, two fees, one for each pension. So I paid like two and a half grand. think it was to access this money. It comes into my bank account and now like I'd not thought ahead. As I said, I'm quite reckless. I don't really forward plan with stuff like that. Then it was like, right, I've got this money now. it's just sat in my own fund. It's not doing anything.
So I started talking about this in my peer groups. Someone said, well, can you lend it me? And I was like, what? You want me to lend you my pension? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do that. And I was like, nah. So anyway, I looked to go back to the administrator. Yeah, yeah, you can do that. So they took care of all the legals, all of the security and everything else. I had it deployed for 18 months or so. And that grew by 1.4 % a month, I think it was, which was incredible. That was a really great win. And then this year,
I discovered that I can deploy business profits straight into my tax to mitigate my corporation tax inside of my business as well. So that was like a no brainer as well. So I'm like kind of in the background filling up a bank account with HMRC's money, which feels great.
Speaker 3 (33:13.184)
We're coming towards the end of a really great conversation, Paul, but a couple of questions directly for our listeners now. So for anyone listening who's got money but no experience, what do you think is the smartest first move they could make in construction or property?
It's got to depend on the person's profile like some people I'm just thinking of people that fits so I've got a client that's got no experience loads of money got absolutely no interest in learning and Just wants it done for him. So he should be hiring in that example He should be hired a one-stop shop contractor or a project management consultant one or two other Like that that would be where I would put my money If however, he's got money
with a desire to learn, would say like get educated, get some education, be that one-to-one support coaching, mentoring, or course, whatever your learner profile is, I have in-person trainings that are belt fed across three to five days. And then I have also an endured program that's 12 months done online. So we create different products to suit different learner profiles. I think that's really important to understand desired outcome in terms of his education or outsource they're for.
And then if they are looking for education, what's their learning profile? Is it in person? Is it online? Is it quick or is it long? Do you like to be sit down in front of a computer for whole day or do you want to sit down and have like five minute videos? What's the, or do you want it live or do you want it recorded? There's lots and lots of different things to think about. And it's not a one size fits all response to your question.
you've got some exciting stuff coming up this year. You've got a property conference in November, I believe, and then your Cypress retreat as well. So making sure business remains fun as well.
Speaker 1 (34:58.894)
Yeah, you got to. Yeah, yeah. We've just bought a house and land out in Cyprus. So, you know, we're building a business out there that starts in 2027, which is extremely exciting. I just ironically need to see how my SSAS works. I believe I've got to deregister it in the UK, which might be a bit of a pain, but we're trying to get my accountants trying to get work around for me now.
For anyone who wants to connect further with you, Paul, where's the best place for them to head?
Facebook's probably the best best place to get hold of me unless you want to give me shit then tick tock that's where my trolls are
and you run some free networking days as well. So perhaps if you can share with us the details, then we can send that out to anyone who's interested in coming along to that.
Yeah perfect, next one's 30th of August, Bracken Beacons, whole day, it's on a Saturday. Just go for a mountain climb, come back down.
Speaker 3 (35:38.936)
Thanks so much for being a great guest on wealth talk today.
Thanks a lot mate.
Speaker 3 (35:45.23)
Okay, thanks to Paul sharing lots of good information there. Really enjoyable conversation. One thing that I asked Paul, you know, where's the opportunities out there at the moment for someone in that area where we were discussing? And he said, it's about really bridging the gap. looking, I guess, holistic is a word we use a lot at WealthBuilders, but looking holistically, bigger picture, what are all the kind of different elements of that property project? And you've got the investors, you've got the contractors, the refurbishment process, and you've got
You know, several people and he said the value really is if you can bring that together and that's obviously a certain skill set, but yeah, one that I think he highlighted well.
I mean that you could look at this in a number of different ways. One of those is all entrepreneurs who are in business are solving problems of others. And so sometimes the business is like he talked about some of the best builders, not really builders, they're business owners who've systemized the process of building. So you don't have to be a builder to have a great building business. And so it is with many businesses. In fact, that more often if you, you're not the doer, you're not tempted to do the doing.
So you're more likely to try and find the solution to the problem and then make that solution for the end user. But in his case, he's actually looking at not the end user, but the people creating a business of doing property. So he's seeing that he's got a unique talent through, I suppose, part of his education in the armed forces, creating discipline, process, systems, operations, and turning some of that thinking.
And I think he demonstrated some people who definitely would not change their thinking. that's true of any aspect where you ask somebody to change, they'll either change or they won't change depending on the perceived benefit. And some people clearly didn't perceive the benefit and just wanted to do the same thing. I think he used the example of the sort of, you know, one page handwritten quote, or even a post-it note or whatever, you know, which you just wouldn't do today. Well, you wouldn't expect that. So I think.
Speaker 2 (37:48.062)
looking at the whole process can help, but equally we've seen business owners who create the whole process, not actually owning a business themselves, but seeing what people are searching for, what niche that they're particularly interested in, and then they can combine all the parts of the process for somebody who's looking. instead of someone looking for an accountant or somebody looking for, let's say it's the financial side.
of property, somebody looking for somebody to do capital allowances or something. You can create a website, you could create a process that joins up trades, accountants, architects, lawyers, and build that all together almost like a bit of a hub or what we call a gateway, which can help you create a business by joining other people's businesses together. So it doesn't really mean you have to be.
skilled in those things, you're effectively a librarian, or maybe that's not the right word, a skilled curator. And you're bringing things together that other people are searching for. in a world where it's so easy to find what people are searching for, you can create that relatively quickly.
That's a very good point, actually. It takes me back to when I first did the Wealth Dynamics assessment, must be over 10 years ago now. For anyone that understands Wealth Dynamics, we've talked about it on a previous podcast. I will link to it, but it's an online assessment. We use it for all of our members who join us in the WealthBuilders Academy. Paul talked about learning profiles. Well, this is like your entrepreneurial profile. This is choosing the path that's the best fit for you based on your strengths and things that will get you into flow.
I'm sure Kevin, you've had people say to you, you just make that look easy. You're a natural at that. And there's something that all of us have that genius skill. And sometimes we don't identify it. And that's what Wealth Dynamics helps for you to really pinpoint that. And yeah, I myself, when I transitioned from employment to setting up my Escape the Rat Race company, naturally was that connector, as you said, that curator who was good at bringing people together.
Speaker 3 (40:03.646)
And the glue often referred to in the middle that was helping people make great connections and learn.
Exactly. And that's really the reason why we connected and did something collaboratively because we've got different wealth dynamics and we began to respect and appreciate each other's differences. And it's not lost on too many people that I tend to do more of the creativity, more of the speaking, more of the passionate please and more of the inventing of new services, which we'll be doing now with the inheritance tax position, you know, so.
So my skill is that financial thinking and clarity and being what I like to think is a teacher. Originally when I went to university, I wanted to be a lecturer, but now I am a teacher, but I teach grownups, not young students or kids. And I like teaching grownups, including actually sometimes with the inheritance thing, teaching older people to think differently about how they're leaving their legacy rather than it being consumed.
to be passed on with stewardship. So, you know, there's a big difference in that thinking. So I like challenging thinking and that's what gives me juice and that's why I'm still here despite my age and despite my increasingly wizened expression.
Know thyself, I think is the message we're saying here. And if you haven't taken Wealth Dynamics, then I'll put a link in today's show notes. Do go and check that out. It really, really is extremely valuable. Something else that Paul talked about was his, I say a failure, but during COVID, he talked about launching an online program and then it kind of fell a bit flat. And we've all had these moments, I'm sure, in our sort entrepreneurial journeys. But there's a key lesson there, I think, which is
Speaker 3 (41:52.962)
You know, don't spend hours and hours and loads of money building something until you validate it and test it the market to make sure that someone who wants to buy it from you.
Well, exactly right. And it wasn't lost on us that when I got on my horse about the inheritance tax guide, what did we do? We created a wait list and then, you know, we got a hundred people like that and we realized there's demand. So now we'll go ahead and create the guide. if you imagine I'd gone into a studio, shot the video, put some effort into marketing, spent thousands of marketing and everybody was put off by.
the concept of inheritance and they wanted to put it off and so on. But now I think we've, we've hit a chord there and I think that's true in anybody who's looking to create a new business, you know, test it first, you know, test the idea in whichever way you can. And sometimes just getting feedback from people you trust say, I'm thinking about this as an idea. Can you tell me whether it's clear to you? Do you understand it? Do you think it makes sense? You know, what do you think of the proposition?
people who know like you and trust you will tell you the truth and give you some feedback. So you can do it in small scale or you could do it if you already got the business, you know, you can do that with a sample of your clients or, you know, any, or in networking, you know, you can go and share it and say, would you mind if I shared this with you? And people will be generous with their feedback. And I think there's many ways to create and test that idea before, what did he say? Spent 65 grand.
Wow. mean, that's a lot of money to lose, isn't it? Just to get the idea wrong when you could have spent 65 quid, you know, just, just to create a template.
Speaker 3 (43:39.374)
For anyone perhaps who's listening, who's new to WealthBuilders and WealthTalk, then our core IP is the seven pillars of wealth. There are seven different asset classes where you can generate recurring income. That's really our objective is to help our members and our clients to achieve financial independence and all the freedoms that come with that. We're talking to Paul today about property and about business, which are two of those pillars. But we also touched on a third pillar, which is pensions.
at the end. And Paul mentioned about this SSAS pension, Kevin, which sounded pretty cool. We know it quite well, but for anyone that doesn't maybe just share a little bit about what that is.
I mean, look, the language is horrible. know, who would think SSAS will self-administered scheme? What does it mean? Is it to do with the armed forces? No. Is it to do with software as a service? Definitely not. It's really for business owners like me, like you, where we can essentially, instead of delegating control of our pensions away, consign that money into a box that says, do not disturb till 65 and hope for the best.
You can take complete control of your money and operate it like you'd operate your business and operate your life. So whatever you want to do, you can use that money to do it pretty much. So it's turning your pension into a business that you can run and you've got points of access so that it can help you build your wealth today. Get corporation tax, income tax back today. So use money that would have gone to HMRC, pay it to yourself.
and then use that to build your wealth. And we're very passionate about it, but it is uniquely for business owners, not for employed people exclusively, not for sole traders. You know, so it's not for that market. It's definitely the domain of the entrepreneur with the structure of a limited company, which then gives permission for the SSAS pension to be created. you know, we do thousands of those and we love doing them because it changes lives.
Speaker 2 (45:47.726)
it brings money onto the table that is on somebody else's table taking a recurring income from it. And this is an important point, Chris, to make that wealth comes from the creation of recurring income. But all too often, people don't understand it well enough, so they end up paying a recurring income. pay, and that usually in three places, they pay tax recurring when they could pay less tax.
They pay interest to third parties. Well, if you use your SSAS, can use your own money so it's interest-free. Or they're paying expenses like stock market fees to third parties, which they don't need to pay. If they take control, then they can take control to the point that they can significantly reduce or even eliminate those fees. So the skill of being a wealth builder, the skill of building wealth is to build recurring income and have that coming into your life.
instead of seeing multiple ways of income flowing out of your life.
Great. Well, thank you for explaining that. And thank you to Paul Tinker for sharing everything today. Hope you enjoyed this episode. I'm sure there were some nuggets that you'll take away. And if you think somebody else might enjoy listening, then please do hit the share button and send it to them. And Kevin, you and I will be back same time, same place next
week and we will indeed until then my friend see ya
Speaker 2 (47:15.854)
We hope you enjoy today's episode. Don't forget that we are constantly updating our resources inside the WealthBuilders membership site to help you create, build and protect your wealth. Head over to wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership right now for free access. That's wealthbuilders.co.uk slash membership.