Congratulations to WealthCoach Toby Spanier and his wife, Kate, for clinching the SSAS Property Investor of the Year award for 2023! But what's the secret behind their success? In this episode, we delve into how they transformed a dilapidated, unmortgageable property into a thriving investment. Using their Small Self-Administered Scheme (SSAS) pension, Toby and Kate loaned money to their limited company, enabling the purchase and revitalisation of the property. With an interest-free loan from the local authority, they refurbished the property and, once let out, funnelled the income back to their company. The Spaniers' journey is not just a tale of financial gain but a blueprint for leveraging SSAS pensions for property investment. They share insights on the flexibility and tax benefits of SSAS pensions, underscoring the importance of thorough due diligence and strong partnerships in establishing a successful family wealth business. Their story offers invaluable lessons for anyone interested in exploring the potential of pension-led property investment, demonstrating the impactful combination of strategic financial planning and entrepreneurial vision.
In today’s episode, we explore the inspiring journey of Toby and Kate Spanier, a couple who leveraged a Small Self-Administered Scheme (SSAS) pension to transform their lives through property investment.
Having moved from London to Kent, they saw potential in a dilapidated property and embarked on a venture that not only brought the property back to life but also set them on a path to financial independence.
Toby, initially a management consultant, and Kate, who later joined him in his enthusiasm for property investment, discovered the power of SSAS pensions.
They took a bold step by using their SSAS pension to loan money to their limited company for the refurbishment of an unmortgageable property.
This strategic move allowed them to refurbish the property with an interest-free loan from the local authority and then generate income through their limited company.
Their adventure into property investment was solidified by winning the SSAS Property Investor Award of the Year 2023, a testament to their innovative approach and the impact of their work.
The Spaniers' story is not just about financial gain; it's about creating a lasting legacy and the empowerment that comes from taking control of one’s financial future.
Throughout the episode, Toby and Kate share insights into the benefits of SSAS pensions, including loan flexibility, tax benefits, and the broader potential of pension-led funding.
They emphasise the importance of due diligence, the power of supportive partnerships, and the vision of building a family wealth business.
The Spaniers' journey offers invaluable lessons for anyone considering property investment, especially through the lens of SSAS pensions.
Their story is a compelling example of how innovative financial strategies can create lasting impacts and open new doors to financial freedom.
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Speaker 1 0:01
The purpose of wealth talk is to educate, inform, and hopefully entertain you on the subject of building your wealth. Wealth builders recommends you should always take independent financial tax or legal advice before making any decisions around your finances.
Christian Rodwell 0:17
Today's episode is brought to you by wealth builders membership a proven step by step process that helps you achieve financial security within two to three years. Find out more head to wealth builders.co.uk forward slash membership. Welcome to Episode 236 of wealth talk. My name is Christian Rodwell, the membership director for wealth builders joined today by our founder Mr. Kevin Whalen, Kevin
Speaker 2 0:41
Cruz. Good to be with you again, Toby. He's a stalwart as me so
Christian Rodwell 0:45
Toby's, Betania. And his wife, Kate, join us on the podcast today. And Toby is a name that should be well recognised by our members. He's been a member himself for many years and progressed to now being a wealth coach, and what a fantastic coach he is. But today, he's joined by his wife, Kate, because their recent award winners at the property investor events, which was took place just for Christmas, and they won the SAS investor of the Year award.
Speaker 2 1:12
And, you know, I remember going back when I first met them, and I'm sure they had a little ounce of scepticism, I think they reveal that in the interview done they, when they came to see me and I think I remember Kate saying to me, later on, you know that she was genuinely inspired by the meeting and has gone on to take some great actions. And it's nice to see the counterbalance, isn't it so not just hear from Toby who's probably much more in the limelight than the cake. But Kate is absolutely, you know, a powerhouse behind the whole kind of engine of the Spanish family well, and then there's some Mac's as well. So no great, great to see. And just just one thing I want to mention, which I think is really important in all of this, Toby and Kate are probably the most generous people I've ever met, generous and spirit generous in money generous in every aspect of their personality. And they've invited me to dinners before to thank me, they've invited me to lunch, coming up to see how they could work even more closely with us in the remainder of the year. And they never shy from exploring that relationship, generosity, and making deposits in the piggy bank of life. And they do it so fantastically well. And I'm sure there's some maximal sponge like as they are at sort of 910 years of age, we'll be picking up some amazing lessons from a wonderful family. So I just want to reveal a personal side, that might resonate with Kate and Toby completely, we
Christian Rodwell 2:58
won't give too much away, because there's some real nuggets in the conversation today. But what I will say is that the very first step of the roadmap that we teach our members is all about family awareness, it's about really triggering that spark that catalyst inside of you. And Kate shares that catalyst moment for herself today. And and it's all tied into legacy, which we know when we speak to our members, Kevin is really at the heart of what's driving most people who you know, have a family in their lives, it's it's about building that legacy, something to be proud of.
Speaker 2 3:29
Well, you know, I hear the word legacy a lot. And I think it's important, particularly, you know, for those who have an aspiration and ambition for wealth to be transferred down the generations, even to people they'll never meet and likened to that quote, isn't it that it's a it's a wise person who plants a tree and never to be experienced the shade of it for themselves. And I think that's, that's true. But I think it's equally important. I do relate back to a recent podcast, with Lisa hunt when she was talking about legacy but but in reality was she was talking about things like travel, you know, wanting to travel and allowing that. That flexibility, freedom of travel with her children so that they had an enriching and an experience in life. And I think that's what creating lasting permanent wealth does. And allows you to help people be who they want to be in. That's your children, as well as in this case, and I do remember Kate saying, I want to support Toby so he can be who he wants to be. And I think so all aspects of that legacy are about allowing whoever is on the generational list alive or on the future, to live a life that they would be best designed to be living. And I think that's what legacy is all about. It's not just the legacy of death. It's the legacy of life to
Christian Rodwell 4:59
get right Find out all about this SAS deal that won Toby and Kate, the SAS investor of the Year award. And we'll be back afterwards for the our usual debrief. Toby Kate, welcome to wealth talk. How are you both? Good. Thank
Unknown Speaker 5:13
you. Good.
Christian Rodwell 5:15
Toby, you're a veteran of wealth talk, we've had you as a guest before. And of course, our members will know you as one of our wealth coaches. So great to have you back today. But great to have Kate joining you, your wife, Kate. And the reason why we're speaking today is, of course, to celebrate the recent award that you both won. In fact, Kate as the SAS, property investor of the year, so well done, congratulations. I know that both of you were involved in this, and we'll find out about the deal. But before we do that, I really, Kate, I'd love to find out from you kind of tell me a bit more about your involvement, and obviously being up on stage picking up that award. How was that that evening for you? It's
Speaker 3 5:55
definitely gonna go down as a highlight of my life, which I never thought I would say. And it was a bit hilarious because we the SAS property investor, the year was the first award up. And I don't think they'd quite run through the technology. So rather than every other category, all the kind of finalists came up on on the screen. And then there was the big reveal, whereas for our category, it was just the big reveal. So I'm taping a halfway across the ballroom to go up on stage. And then we were like, Oh, hang on. Now. Now in Morton's pictures gone up, was it us. And then they're like, where's Kate, where's Kate, my foot, we stuck me at the back of the room for a start. So it was quite a walk through. But yeah, it was just it was an, it's always an incredible experience, any kind of award that you're nominated for, or you, you're a runner up before, or you actually win. Just being in a room of people celebrating you getting that recognition is tremendous. And then the people that want to talk to you afterwards, you know that networking, even if you're just a finalist, you know, to see the passion for the industry in the room is it's really quite overwhelming and captivating, I would say.
Christian Rodwell 7:16
And I'll come back to just a bit more about that in a second. Kate, but Toby, just for our members, you know, they've known you as a coach for the last couple of years or so. But tell us just about the last few years for you because you've transitioned Haven't you out of the corporate world to becoming full time investor, and now also coaching as SAS coach for wealth builders as well. So your experience with SAS certainly goes back a few years?
Speaker 4 7:42
Yes. So I left university and I joined Deloitte as a management consultants. I was the second year that Deloitte took people directly from university as management consultants. And I was there for I guess, what, Christian 2525 years. And I got to year 20. And I thought, You know what, I mean, this has been a great career. But do I really want to do it forever? And do I really want to do more than 25 years? And the answer was, No, I didn't want to do more than 25 years. And I thought, well, but I can't just, if I just stop, then what we're going to live on, we need something else. And so I decided at year 20, that I was going to do property and build up a property portfolio. So that when I left Deloitte, it wouldn't massively impact the standard of living of my family. I started buying properties at back in 2017. At the same time, I heard about SAS, and basically, Kate and I set up a SAS, and it's been supporting the property portfolio all the way through, other than the first initial properties that we purchased. I think every property that we bought, has had some SAS model. We'll talk a bit about this later. But the SAS has been involved has been supporting pretty much every deal that we've done, henceforth, and we're on like, deal 67 So there's quite a few deals in there where the SAS has been able to support
Christian Rodwell 9:04
Absolutely, well, we're gonna dive into the details specifically around the deal that won the award. Take me back to that point where you first heard about SAS because if I'm correct, both of you actually went and met Kevin and that was a wealth builders headquarters in East Grinstead. So So Kate, take us back to that meeting. What was your sort of feelings your mindset about about property about SAS about the whole investing world I suppose at that time,
Speaker 3 9:30
so obviously, you know, Toby's talks about it does say evident to most people when they meet Toby or they hear Toby he's got a real affinity, a passion, a lifelong mission to be in property investing, coaching, whatever guys, but it's his real passion. And it isn't mine in the same way. You know, I'm incredibly supportive partner. I want Toby to be doing what fulfils him what makes him happy? What makes him get out of bed? He's a and he's he's the same with me and the strange things I get involved in in this sort of nine to five, but he came I remember him coming back from either a property me or a training and Kevin had obviously spoken is like, write a book to the point where we're gonna go and meet this guy, and he's Grinstead. I just want to know more about it. I'm not I'm not convinced it kind of almost sounds too good to be true. And I was like, Oh, I've got to come. East Grinstead. Oh, I've got leaves the village. Oh, and it's about property. Anyway, I think for me, it was one of a standout part of my personal property journey. Because any of you who've had the pleasure of meeting Kevin, will, you know, you're blown away by his passion for what sasses can do what being in control of, of your future can do for you, for your family, for your future generations. And I think I came, we were coming home. And I said to Ted Carr, I'm really excited. This is this is like, an Toby's this is one term that Toby really hates game changer. But I have to admit, after that meeting, I was kind of like, this is game changing, it's life changing. I'm completely honest, the SAS is the one part of our portfolio that I'm most excited about. Because it's not just the fact that we're in control of our pensions that we wouldn't have our hands on for, well, God knows how long because every year, it seems it gets pushed back to, you know, 5758 59 Yeah, who knows, when our generation actually will be able to get their hands on the money they've been saving and investing. So taking that control back, that excites me, I like being in control of my future, my destiny, and also doing something with my, my husband, that I can get on board with to, and to come away from that initial meeting with Kevin thinking, this is exciting, because this is something that I'm happy to support Toby in. And just that concept of, you know, knowing that we're building a future for our son, financial firms and financial future for him, any children, he may have, you know, great grandchildren that we may never know or see. Just, that's, that's powerful. And another thing that Toby always had, you know, used to sort of often talk about is how to how do we create a legacy? How do we live forever? And I'd be like, God, it's one of these existential questions of here's, you know, yeah, well, I, I don't know, how do we live forever? We have a SAS. Yeah, we'll be long gone. But that small self administered scheme will be trucking into the future. And to get all of that, out of that initial meeting with Kevin, I was I was like, Okay, what do we do? Where do we sign and it's, it is rare for me to get this excited and this passionate about anything around finance property. It's just it's not my jam, like it is TVs, but SAS ticks a lot of boxes for me. And
Christian Rodwell 13:11
Toby, you're, you're now SAS coach, for wealth builders members. But for any listeners who perhaps don't understand exactly, you know, how do you set up a SAS? Can you just quickly talk us through what that process was like for yourself setting up the SAS? Well,
Speaker 4 13:24
the key thing is making the decision to set it up and the decision of which company to do go to to help you get it set up. Once you've made the decision, it's kind of, it's pretty easy. There's a lot of admin, there's a lot of form filling everything in the pension industry is really slow. So don't expect it to happen overnight, but it eventually happens. So you don't need to know all the technical ins and outs of how to do it. That's why you basically partner, whether a specialist pension administrator who does all the heavy lifting for you, what you need to do is make the decision of whether it's the right decision for you to basically take control of your own pension. And rather than someone else decides what your pension is invested in, you decide what it's invested in. And with that comes a responsibility, you know, you're actually taking on another job. So if you have a SAS, you certainly promoted yourself to finance director, Chief Investment Officer, there is no one else to say, What should I invest the pension in, because it's your decision, it's your job. There isn't some IFA out there. There isn't some, you know, Board of Trustees at some big pension fund, like, you know, standard life or Aviva, it's up to you. And a lot of people don't really get that. So it's another job on top of the many jobs you have, but it's probably one of the most fun jobs because you know, who doesn't like shopping, especially when there's money there that otherwise you wouldn't be able to touch or feel or do anything with until you're 55 or 57? Or perhaps later. So it just enables you to use money which is kind of like dead money. You know, this statement people get once a year don't know what to do with it stick in a drawer. And then the next year another statement arrives, they stick it in the drawer. It doesn't mean anything. All of a sudden And that number means something because you can actually use that cash to invest in a business or businesses and support your own business. That's the key thing that SAS enables you to do.
Christian Rodwell 15:11
And what pensions did you use between the two of you in order to get the SAS set up,
Speaker 3 15:16
I worked in the charity sector for that was my main career. So I had, you know, a really nice, woolly, ethically invested, not growing very much pension, which we actually took longer to liberate than Toby's. Corporate impressive ly large pension, because tables like oh, they're not going to want to pay that out. And actually, it happened really quickly, my one which was kind of bit mediocre, compared to his took ages to get released by the pension fund. But what for me has been great is actually seeing some some kind of pension equality if you like tech, you know, Toby, as I said, I worked in the charity sector doesn't attract to the rates of pay that being up in professional services attracts fact. So obviously, Toby's pension was always going to be far more healthy than mine. But by us, by putting both of them together in the SAS, I've been able to grow my part of the pension pot, it makes me feel like more of an equal partner. And unfortunately, one of one of the key things about being female in this world is, we are the ones that have to sacrifice something, if we want to have children and grow a family, you know, it is harder for, for us to get to what, what our male counterparts are. And you know, it's this isn't Craig case about whether that's fair, that's a whole other conversation for other people. But what I love now is that I am financially pulling my weight, if you like, by having taken a pension that was never going to achieve much where it was importing it into our SAS, I am a financial partner with my life partner, my husband. And for me, that's incredibly empowering, to actually, you know, be able to say, none, and I don't, I don't want us to invest in that I want it to go here. And I want to do that with with my bit of the fund. And because we are this small scheme, and it is just the two of us who are trustees, Toby can't just go off and do what he wants without me agreeing, and vice versa. And so you go from feeling like you don't really have a voice in what's going on in the financial hilarity that can be married life to suddenly you know, you are or well aren't, you know, I am an equal partner in this. I don't want anyone to think that I've never been an equal partner in our marriage, far from it. But I think it's just the way the world is it's, it's harder for wives, female partners, it just is it's just the way the world is. But this gives you Well, it certainly feels like it's given me some kind of gender equality, which is not what I thought I would say about my Sass ever, but it's true. So
Christian Rodwell 18:18
almost sounds like the the wealth building journey. It was almost like life before SAS and then life after SAS. So when SAS was created, did that change your mindset, Toby? Because you've been obviously working on the buy to let and it sounds like that was kind of your thing a bit more? Once the SAS was there, as you say, now it's a joint decision. It was a joint strategy moving forward. So so how did that dynamic change? Yeah,
Speaker 4 18:43
so the biggest mistakes I've made is when I've just run off and gone shopping and bought stuff and haven't spoken with anybody else. With the sasses there's been a lot of people don't realise. So Kate and I are member trustees, we are basically the financial directors, the chief executives, we are the everything of the SAS. And that means that all decisions have to be unanimous. This is why SAS small self administer schemes tend to be very small, because you need someone that you really trust. And if Kate doesn't sign the Chitty, then I can't do anything. And so with any investment, I've got explained to Kate, and then she goes, Don't sound don't like the sound of that. What if this happens? What if that happens? And it forces me to think through? I've already thought this through? Have I thought about the risks here? Is this actually a silly investment? This is a pension, you're meant to be more conservative with your pension funds than you are with company funds than you are with personal funds. I think yeah, I've also got responsibility just not to myself but also to future generations, our SAS, we have 100 year business plan for it. So if I make a stupid decision now, it can affect future generations I'm not going to meet and I want to have a life of significance. I want to have a legacy. And I shouldn't be taking a city decision that's going to screw that all up. And by chaos, I mean questions sometimes very simple questions like What is this for? You It just puts that pressure on me to go. Oh, yeah, let me just how can I explain this? And sometimes I'm explaining though, it sounds like, it sounds not good. Practice isn't the right thing to do. So I think it's really useful. And when we started the SAS, as Kate mentioned, I had 97% of 93% of the funds, the SATs and 93% was my money that went in my pension, Kate had 7%. But she's an equal partner. She says, No, I can't do anything. And know that parity I think is really, really important. As time went on, though, we made some profits in our limited company. And we decided that all those profits should be a pension contribution to Kate's about the SAS. And that sort of levelled out that the percentages. So I think it's been a useful check and balance for me. And often when I'm explaining something, I go, I sound crazy. This isn't right, I need to go back and renegotiate this. So it's been really helpful. Now,
Christian Rodwell 20:56
before we get into the details of of the deal that won the award, take me back to that first use of the SAS. So what was the first deal? And was that a scary moment? Because Toby, you must come across this when you're coaching certain clients who've set up a SAS, where they don't actually do need Praveen for you know, six months, 12 months, and sometimes it's a bit of fear, suddenly, you've got this money, it's your pension, you don't want to make a mistake. So So did you have any of that element of fear at the beginning yourselves? Definitely,
Speaker 4 21:23
I would say, Okay, it's gonna say anything, but definitely. So you know, it takes a long time, it takes about six months, the process to work its way through to set up a SAS get HMRC approval, and then to get these pension funds to let go very money. Because every day they delay, they're making commission on it. So there's no interest in them being hyper efficient, they'll drag it out for as long as possible. And then the money arrives and they go, Wow, we can actually see a bank accounts, and it's got a huge amount of money in it. Sharks, what do we do now. And you're so relieved that you've got through this hurdle of, we've got the money, you then think, Oh, now we've got another problem, you've got this huge amount of money. If we leave it where it is, it's way more than 85k. So if the bank, that bank goes down, we're only insured under the Financial Services compensation scheme for 85k. And everything else is lost. So you've got this pressure that you need to deploy the funds, but you don't really know what to deploy the funds in. Or you may, you may have some ideas, it's not the right time, things take take a while to do. So what I say to my coaches, and what we did was, well, what was the pension invested in before? Oh, it was just in an all share tracker and s&p Tracker with Vanguard, passive low cost, why don't we just do the same thing. So the first thing we did was to set up basically bought bought shares in the tracker, and it was doing exactly the same thing that it was doing in the Deloitte pension in the in Kate's pension, so that's fine. It's now invested, it's deployed, it's secure, it's within a financial institution where there's race guarantees that the money can't go missing. And it's exposed to the stock market. And it's gradually increasing over time, without their fees without their fees without their fees. So it's more, it's more cost effective, because you don't have a fund manager, telling what to do you know what to do, just to promote the same thing it was before. And then as time went on, there were opportunities to use them, you got a lot of flexibility with the SAS opportunities came up to deploy our pension in more effective ways to support our limited business. And so as those opportunities came up, you sell some shares, you move the money into something else, it did take a bit of a while to, for me to get my head around it. And, you know, we set the SAS up about the same time that we set the limited company up. So they're both been developing at the same time.
Speaker 3 23:34
For me as well, I think with that the first steps once we had our money in our SAS, it's a bit overwhelming. And I can see why there are, you know, people who are new to having a SAS, it takes a while to get going because, you know, with great power comes great responsibility, and all of a sudden, you've got this, this pot of money that you didn't think you would be responsible for. And there's that God, what if what if I, what if we don't choose the right thing to put some of that money into? I certainly struggled sometimes with the what ifs? Or what if that doesn't go the way you think it's gonna go, Toby? What if we don't get that return? Toby? What What if and I think also, sometimes that's my job as as a as a member trustee to, to ask those what if questions to make him trot off and do a bit more due diligence until I'm happy, but it can be a bit overwhelming because all of a sudden, it's like, oh my God, I've got to do something with this. What do I do? And
Speaker 4 24:37
money comes from personality and SAS money has a lot of personality, because this money has been built up over 2025 years of hard graft, you know, a lot of blood sweat tall tears are in those funds. So that money is really precious because that represents you know, all your working life. And so it just creates more pressure on how you deploy it. You don't really want to live Use that money because you've worked so hard to build it up. But again, you don't want to be paralysed into not making a decision, you need to make a decision. And this is the first thing about having a SAS people miss, you are the trustee, you make all the investment decisions. It's it's another job. But it's a fun job. And you can go at your own speed and you basically start learning. Because you've got the ability to transact was before you basically had no ability to do very much with your pension. Yeah.
Christian Rodwell 25:27
And the reason for having good support around you and seeing others who are already successfully deploying their SAS can give you that confidence and the ability to talk to them and reassure you, I'm sure,
Speaker 4 25:37
yeah, I mean, when we set up our SAS, there wasn't a coaching. I don't think there was a coaching programme. So we just had the SAS the money drops in, and then we didn't know what to do. It took us a while to figure out now, you know, the interviews develops a bit more and you know, coaching can be really helpful, just hand holding, you know, people to take little steps to get their money deployed in a safe and secure way. Okay,
Christian Rodwell 26:01
so let's dive into the details of this deal. And from what I understand, you know, the property in question was described as dilapidated and mortgageable. So what did you see in this property that others might have missed? And then who would like to walk us through this deal? Toby
Speaker 3 26:17
is the man for the detail on the deal, but I think you've hit on some really interesting words. dilapidated, unmarketable and that's why it was attractive to buy this property using SAS money. And I'm sure Toby will explain a bit more about that. So I'm gonna pass it over to him. Okay, Toby,
Christian Rodwell 26:38
so tell us tell us how this deal came about.
Speaker 4 26:40
Right. Well, I we have a deal sorcerer that sends us deals all the time every Sunday. They these deals are totally bespoke to our investment criteria, constantly updated, really happy that our sorcerer and we pay our sorcerer zero, because our Sorcerer is Rightmove and we've set up Rightmove alerts that every Sunday send us all the deals that fulfil our investment criteria. And then I just spend 10 seconds just scrolling through my phone going, Oh, that one looks good. Let's, let's dig into that. And so this deal, what I liked about it is you can actually see the house because there was a bush outside the house. So it got so big, it became a tree. And in the right move photo, you couldn't see the house. So I think, well, that's not a house that someone's going to want to buy and live in. That's definitely investment property. Next thing is this house was like almost half the price and what houses go for in the area, the thought, Hmm, this looks interesting. House in the area went for 200k. This house is on the market for 120. So oh, this is interesting. And then it said cash buyers only I thought, oh, even more interesting, what I loved what we love to buy is properties that no one else wants, because if no one else wants them, then you can negotiate a better price for them. And also you can negotiate slowly, because you know, no one's going to swoop in and steal the deal from you, because no one else will be bidding. So this is kind of like perfect, because it's an a mortgageable property, it doesn't look very good. Obviously, it's work, no bank is ever going to lend on it. Unless you've got cash in your bank accounts people don't, you need to get a bridging firm involved, bridging firms are quite high fees for when you buy small ticket items or you know, 120 grammes. So great for a SAS because the SAS can lend to our limited company, and something called a loan back. And we are the way that bank managers assess. We're also the directors of the limited company. So we can decide as a prudent pension, that member trustees to make a loan to our limited company where with a different hat on, we are the directors of that business to make an investment and make some returns that you know, then get paid back to to the SAS through interest payments, and are secured with a first charge to the to the SAS. So all these things I thought were you know, attracted me to this property. And I went to say it and it's all the things that I expected slowly carpets, bathrooms in sort of an olive green, all matching mind you have windows that were installed in like 1918. And none of them actually opens lots of cracks in the building. All the telltale signs of places that people don't live in and a place that hadn't been lived in for a couple of years. Because the old lady was in a in a home. And obviously the family didn't really know what to do. So that's kind of what attracted me because you kind of got in a way an unfair advantage. If you can buy in cash with money that you didn't think you had I pension money and you can buy something that no one else can buy who has to get a mortgage. These are all advantages. The other advantages of a dilapidated and multi property is if it's not inhabitable, then you don't pay the 3% stamp duty surcharge. Because if it's not habitable, it's not residential. If it's not residential, you pay Add non residential stamp duty charges which up to 150,000 pounds are zero pounds. So there's no stamp duty to pay as opposed to, you know 3% of the purchase price. So that was another advantage. Another advantage was is dilapidated in this area, which is Dover council tax, you don't pay council tax, you get an exemption if you need to do some structural works. So that's another saving that we we were able to make. So all these things that will put people off kind of attract trap may attract us to this these kind of deals. Well, guess what I sent my builder in, I agreed to buy it for asking price, because it's so cheap. And this the market was hot at the time it was 2021. Just kind of post COVID When everything was starting up again, my brother went in, you know, that endwall cable wall. It's really unsafe, I think it might it might just collapse. You need to go back and renegotiate this, I went, Okay, well, how much they're gonna cost? Send me an invoice, an estimate, oh, it's gonna cost 20 grand. So I don't like doing this. But I went back and said, I know we've agreed 120. But look, I've got this estimate, this is what's required. I sent a Rick surveyor in as well, who said it was unsafe, uninhabitable. I think the vendor knew, but didn't disclose. This is why it's a cash purchase only. And they just accepted the reduction to 100k. So great, we bought it 100k.
Christian Rodwell 31:21
So the savings were mounting up there.
Speaker 4 31:22
The savings were mounting up. And of course, we could do this thing called a loan back of the purchase price, less interest payments. But actually, in this case, we use the different properties, we are security assets. So basically, I think on this one, we I think we did a loan back of 170 5000s, because we had another property that we that was on mortgage that we were using as given the first charge to the SAS. And that was quite a valuable property. So we're kind of now getting into how how loan back works. Basically, we borrowed all the money to buy the property from our SAS pension. And we borrowed all the money to do the refurbishment from our suspension. So that made it a lot easier
Christian Rodwell 32:13
to just walk through what is the process and cater that of loaning money from your SAS to your limited company? Well,
Speaker 3 32:19
you know what, it's just genius, isn't it? Because I can't think of any other any other way that we could have done that, you know, we've got this pension money sitting there. We want to buy something, you know, we could borrow money at some kind of punitive rate? No, no, no, but you just are loaning your money to your property business, which is a legitimate trading entity. And bingo, you know, yes, we we put a first charge on it. As far as I know, the process is very simple, because tape just puts forms on my desk for me to sign, which is probably not what I should say. But it's it's not complicated. And it's exciting, because you're just getting your hands on that money to do something to buy a tangible building, that you're bringing back into use as well. I mean, that's the other thing that I loved about this deal. This was a house that was going to fall down. But we've taken something that was dilapidated, or mortgageable had a tree essentially growing up through it. At one point, you know, we've now turned it into a desirable property that we were renting to a young couple they've now moved on. And now it's actually being used as temporary accommodation for a local authority. It's kind of come full circle, you know, it's it's gone back to being a solution to a problem, which is this gargantuan housing needs that that there is in this country, this property, nobody wanted to touch it, we were able to use loan back to lend the money to our company spiked to do the work to put it back into the housing market. And now it's providing safe secure accommodation for people. And that excites me.
Christian Rodwell 34:09
And Toby, there are some criteria about paying back that loan. What just let our listeners know what that is. So
Speaker 4 34:16
a loan back is essentially a business loan, from your SAS pension to your limited company. And, like all business loans, think think mortgage, yeah, but the only thing different is rather than the mortgage with you know, Halifax or you know, Lloyds, it's from your SAS. So when you get a mortgage, the lender doesn't give any money unless they get a first charge security. So that's number one, you need to have a first chart security that is given from the limited company to the SAS, that is equal to the amount of money that you're borrowing and the interest payments that you need to pay. So one slight difference to traditional mortgages. is traditional mortgages and a 75% loan to value, you don't have that rule with a suspension, you can do higher loan to value, because the loan to value is basically 100% loan to value less the interest costs. So in this particular case, I think the interest that we paid SAS was 1%, above the Bank of England at the time the bank and it was point seven, five percents. So the interest was 1.75%, we gave her first child security to SAS, that was more than the value of the loan and the interest payments. The second that say that loan back is you have to decide a term for it. Now, this is a bit different to to a mortgage, because typical mortgages are two or five years, but with a SAS loan that you can assign it to be 1234 or five years. And then the other difference is, it's a capital and interest type mortgage, which means you have to pay back the capital on an equal basis over the number of years. So if you have a one year loan, Mack, you need to pay at the end of the year, the interest and the capital mount back again. So if you did a loan back for 100k, you'd have to pay the interest and the 100k. Back after one year, if you decide to do a loan back over two years, you'd have to pay 50% of the capital, ie 50k, and the interest payment at the end of year one. And then there in the two year two, if you did the five year then you pay 20% of the capital back and the interest. So one of the kinks in loan brackets, you've got to work out how you're going to be able to pay back that capital amount, as well as the interest. So it's kind of quite simple. If you're effectively using your SAS pension as being a bridging firm, you just do a one year loan, and you do the property deal within a year and you get it refinanced in the year. That's pretty straightforward. If it's going to take more than a year, you need to then decide how many years you want to do for your loan back. We've decided on doing five year loan backs, but we had to have a plan of how we funded that 20% capital repayment each year. And
Christian Rodwell 37:03
when you first saw this property, what was your initial plan in terms of the exit?
Speaker 4 37:06
I think I wanted to buy it, do it up and then flip it as quickly as possible. But like all these things, sometimes things take longer. I think at the time, I just assumed to realise at the time, I just assumed that all Lomax were five years, I didn't realise you could do a one year or two year or three year. So we just said that as a as a five year loan back then
Christian Rodwell 37:27
did the local authority get involved to your friends they did. They
Speaker 4 37:31
did that not every local authority gets involved. But you know, some local authorities really dislike these empty properties. Because they pull down the whole street, you didn't get squatters moving in anti social issues. People don't live in the street, it just it just pulls everything down. And also the councillors didn't get any council tax from a property that that's basically derelict that no one's living in. That's uninhabitable. So this is Kent Kent has a scheme called the no use empty scheme, whereby they make loans to property developers and investors to bring back empty properties into use. So in this case, we were eligible for a 40,000 pound interest free loan for three years. So 0% Finance, and then there's about five and liquid of arrangement fees, but you know, really pretty cheap. And that 40k Basically almost paid for all of the refurb. So that was another nice thing. So we bought this property at 100k, which was a good price, because properties in the area were 200k. We didn't pay stamp duty, we didn't pay council tax, and then the council gave us 40k To do it up. So there were just multiple benefits from buying this property. And this is a property that if we didn't have a SAS I would just would have scrolled on, because how am I going to buy that property? I can't.
Christian Rodwell 38:48
Was it about 140? Was it literally about 40k refurb. So total costs and then and what what have you done with it since? Well,
Speaker 4 38:55
having worked at Deloitte for 25 years, I'm pretty good at the spreadsheet, and I'm pretty good at Excel. But every time I do this exercise of estimating the budget, I always get it wrong. So there's me thing Yeah, we could definitely do this for 40k. But guess what, when you start lifting floorboards, you find other things. And I think it was in total 57,902 pounds in quite a bit over our, our budget, but our budget really was 40k Because I thought well, that's what we're gonna get from the council. So that's what we're going to spend. I did break things down, I didn't have a spreadsheet, but you do just find things in these buildings that haven't been maintained that just need sorting out. So this was chunky, but again, we had 175,000 pounds loan back secured on another property which was worth more than 175,000 pounds. We've kind of secured it on this property. But if we did that we'd only be able to secure it on 100k less the interest payments. So it actually helps that we had another property that was unencumbered and guess what? We've done several loan backs on The same property so we can keep on going back to that property and doing more loan backs because it's worth more than the value of the loan backs. So yeah, 60k to do the work. So we got the 40k, back from the council, we didn't get back 48 from the council still doesn't need to be paid off, because it isn't three years yet. And then, after the works, the property was worth 200k. At that stage, we decided to let it out. And we've got 150,000 pound mortgage, so 75% of the 200k. So that obviously pays back the loan back, although we decided on a five year loan, so we haven't paid back the loan that we're just paying back 20% each year, and the money is still within the limited company doing other deals open to do other deals. So at the end of the day, we spent 157, we got 150,000 back, so we got 7000 pounds still in the deal. But we also got given or gifted 40,000 pounds. So actually none of our money is really in this deal at the moment, would you have to pay this 40,000 pounds back in three years. But it works ignore the 40,000 pounds, who wouldn't want to property that you spent 7000 pounds on after after everything that's given you a nice little income. And it's a nice little baby buy to let. And
Speaker 3 41:18
what's also great is the fact that it was it's gone from being a mortgageable to mortgageable. So by the mechanism of the loan back, we got the money out of our SaaS to do the initial purchase and the refurb. And on all of that, we were able to get a conventional mortgage on it. So you're, you've taken a dead property, done the work to it and then raised more money on it. It's almost like a gift that keeps on giving in a way. And then you're able to go and you know, to be able to go and do more things within the property portfolio. And that wouldn't be possible without the power of the SAS without that ability to loan the money to ourselves to buy something that nobody else wanted to buy. You know, how great is that? And then to be able to get a mortgage on it. To get money out of this property. It baffles me it does literally I'm struggling to come up with the word for it. Because it's just why wouldn't you want to do this? Why wouldn't you want to be able to do this with your own money? It's just to me, it seems like a completely genius thing.
Christian Rodwell 42:30
Once again, congratulations, because winning the SAS property investor award of the year is a significant achievement. And finally, Kate, what advice would you give others who are considering using SAS at the moment or considering using their pension, I should say, for property investment? And what are the key lessons that you've learned from all of these experiences? Take
Speaker 3 42:49
control. And it's about that it's about getting that control back over your financial future and not just your financial future. But you know, like we've said several times the financial future of your children or the people that you would you know, if you don't have to and the people who you care about that you want to create a financial future or if I can understand the basics of a SAS anyone can understand the basics of a SAS but to make sure your other member trustees, you know, they're a bit more Toby than K I would say. But it's it's given me a passion for property that I think it's fair to say, Toby, I didn't I didn't care. Before we got the SAS it really wasn't my thing. You know, I've always gone oh yeah, Toby's doing property. That's his jam. But the SAS I love and I'm a lot more involved in, because it is both of us. And it is exciting. I can't believe how excited I got going and Christian, you know, we took this money, we've got a loan back and then we got a mortgage. I mean, how cool is that? That wouldn't that wouldn't have been made five years ago, I really wouldn't have cared. But I am excited. And I seem to recall that first meeting with Kevin when he explained about what you could do with SAS, I was like, why don't more people know about this? This is like magic. And it does give you that sense of this is really exciting. And I remember it being at the property investors wards and people would go congrats. I was like, well have you got a SAS you need to look at them. Because SAS is a seriously sexy, and they were like what? But they are it's just such, there's such a creative use of money that you wouldn't even have contemplated you wouldn't even have thought of. And there are a lot of young, there's a great young generation in property. They're passionate. They're going out there and doing amazing things. And I want to say to them, right, the next thing you need to start doing is thinking about a pension and thinking about SAS because there will come a point where you run out of money. But you know what, if you've got this SAS, you're able to do stuff with that you're able to leverage it in a way that you can't. You can't leverage other things and just to have that ability. Isn't that exciting? To have that control over your life? your financial future your property journey, you might have wanted something shorter and more pithy, but it's not I get excited about stuff as
Christian Rodwell 45:07
well. And I know that both of you are still under the age of 50. And look at how much you've leveraged your pension already and so many more years to come. And you know, you have a son, Max, Toby, you know, in terms of legacy in terms of passing this on is max understanding and you starting to have conversations around what you're doing with with him?
Speaker 4 45:28
No, because he's nine years old. Okay, when he's 18. If he plays it right, he'll be added as a member trustee. And you can join the SAS that I have
Speaker 3 45:38
to say, Actually, I have to interject at this point. There was a very cute phase that Max went through of sitting on Toby's lap on a Sunday when so we'll be scrolling through Rightmove and maxes Fingal guest stop. Now, I like that one, daddy. But I don't, I don't like the kitchen. Can we? Can we take the kitchen out? And then you know, and I think at his age, it's hard to comprehend what his dad does what his mum does, I think there are signs that we could get him involved. At the moment, all he wants to do is go to America and play college football. I don't hold out much hope he can't even get picked for a hockey squad. So um, but let's not dampen his enthusiasm. I mean, it's exciting. It's I feel like we have a family firm, even though he's nine says
Christian Rodwell 46:21
that family wealth business that as you say in time, I'm sure you know, he'll start to pick up some of the lessons and and start asking more and more questions as to what what are you doing? What are all these properties about? Yeah,
Speaker 3 46:33
he is he likes to go and look at the properties far more than I do. And in fact, Toby took it wasn't a property that we bought in the past, but it's a property that we have locally and take, we had to go there on the weekend. And I was like, No, I'm coming in, I'll sit in the car Max, like, I'll come in. And he's like, across the road up the stairs, telling me all about it like, Well, what we're gonna do, we're gonna put some stairs up to the attic, and then that will be my bedroom. I seem to think he thinks we're going to move into these houses. But what I take away is he does have a bit of, you know, some spatial awareness. Some kind of, you know, planning mouth. So you know, who knows?
Christian Rodwell 47:10
And Toby, I'm sure you'll do your comments on anyone considering a SAS would be similar to Kate's
Speaker 4 47:16
Yes. And also, perhaps the SAS isn't right for you, perhaps you don't have any money to put in, and you're just starting. But remember, if you understand SAS, it means that you can borrow from other people SAS. So actually, SAS is relevant to everybody, not only the people who have it, but also the people who don't, who have property businesses or other businesses that require cash to to make stuff happen. And I think one of the big benefits of having a sasses we are both lenders and borrowers. Now we've got our own SAS, we understand what we're looking for as investors in other people's businesses. And that makes us better at then, being in our business people, asking people for fun, so we borrowed from other people's assets, to support our businesses. So it's basically I think, relevant for everybody, regardless of whether you want to set up a SAS for yourself or not, so long as you've got a business that or an idea or a business that you know, it's going to make money that you need cash for SAS is irrelevant.
Christian Rodwell 48:13
Thank you once again, and congratulations, Kate. Toby. Thanks being great guest today on wealth top. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so congratulations, once again to Kate and Toby there lots of lessons for us to draw out. In fact, let's do that, just after we have our latest review from Trustpilot. This week. So I'm going to head over to our page. And we've had a review come through in the last few days from Stephen, who says I have really enjoyed being part of this great community where you will have experience a professional attitude in all areas of finance and wealth. Everything is principle centred, no overselling just good solid advice and guidance. I would happily recommend wealth builders to anyone wanting to jump on the journey of lifelong learning. always lovely to be acknowledged when you have success in from specially in front of all of your peers, all of those other property investors and you know, Kate and Toby, what a wonderful evening that was for them. Yeah,
Speaker 2 49:15
you know, and there are so many benefits from actually putting yourself forward for awards. I think. I remember reading recently about things like bursaries and scholarships, and so so few people apply for them, because they think they wouldn't ever qualify. So the starting point is maybe useful to think about, are there any awards in the business you're in? Find out a little bit more about that. Certainly property investor awards, won by a very nice chap called there, Cyril Cyril Thomas, and, you know, I'm a judge on the awards, not for the SAS. Don't judge people who have a relationship with I recuse myself from Joe June. But But nonetheless, it's been great to know that the award winners for the last two years have been inside the web build community. And long may that continue because we're well known. With with with SASS, but but the point about the awards is fight if you if you can get an awareness of what awards are grants, bursaries, all those things, and just take some time to apply. You know, and it's not that difficult, the process is really relatively simple. It's just a filling out a form, really. And once you do that, you're then in the race. And as Kate says, you even if you're a finalist, you know, you've still got award winners, you think about the sheffey programmes, you know, I'm bit of a foodie, Chris, and you're sometimes the, you know, the finalist in whatever it is you mastermind chef of the year or something, and you go, Oh, they're a finalist, that must be good, why didn't win. But that's not the point, you know, they're participating at a high level, and they're putting themselves out to get known. And I think that's a good thing. And when you get an award winning credibility, then it's also more likely that people will gravitate towards you. And if you're looking to be investable in the future, then who doesn't want to invite invest their money with award winning people, as opposed to average people. So what it does is allows you to think beyond mediocrity, into excellence. And they did an excellent job. And now they'll go on to do even more things. And I suppose what what surprised me that this is one example of so many, I think Toby mentioned, like 60, something 67 different deals, as he calls them, you know, where the SAS has been involved, they don't have to be award winning, because they're making you money every time you do it. But bringing old money into play, while you're young, is something most people don't realise. They think their pension is something to put in a box that says Do Not Disturb till I'm old and grey, you know, and that money gets lost and forgotten in mind. And often, as we've said many times, gets lost in reality, and money gets lost and forgotten about and that money simply disappears into the ether of the financial institutions, bank balances in many cases. So I think getting focused on how can you turn your pensions into something that you could do that will help you add value, grow your wealth and contribute to your wealth journey today, while you're young not wait till you're in your 60s to get it. What that does is four shortens the journey, and brings the wealth, terms of financial security and independence decades forward. So you heard Toby work for 25 years and accompany right became financially independent within five, you don't need to be waiting for 3040 years, till your pension works. Look to see whether or not it would benefit you to work now. And another was sceptical when they first met Toby was like too good to be true, okay, you won't really have to go and talk about all that. But they did. So they took the courage of a conviction to come and meet. And that's all they had to do. And I encourage anybody to be curious, that's all I say to people is, look, you're going to learn what you need to learn to turn your pension into real profit now, unless you take the time, and the starting point is not to learn everything, and know everything to be a pensions expert in an hour. Take an hour and get curious. And it's that reason to overcome inertia Crysta ROI that I've mentioned, on many occasions, you just find a reason to overcome the inertia of where you are. And for most people, their pensions of poor value, poor returning are not going to come into play until they're in their 60s, and often get forgotten about. I suppose that delegation very frequently turns into application and we talked about that in a previous podcast if you have an asset that you don't pay attention to dilapidated. It's the same in property. And it's the same with pensions, and sadly, most people just don't think they can do it. They don't think they've got the right to access it. So just as applying for grants and applying for bursaries, people don't do it. people applying for awards, people don't do it, turning your pension into an asset. People don't do it. And all we're looking to do is are this somebody out there? Is there a listener out there? That's interesting. You know, hear what somebody else did not. What Why is Kevin Whelan talking about it because it's a self serving business. Right? It is, of course, it's a commercially profitable thing for us to do. But the value we bring to other people in their lives is hugely Over valuable to them, then the cost that that we charge to do the work that we do, which is to help people learn about it, get confident, to stay compliant. So they feel continually, they're making small steps to gradually get the knowledge and the confidence to be able to own and control their own pension just as they would on control their cash, and only control their businesses and only control their properties is just another asset. But for some reason, people their heads fry with it. And we're just so grateful we've helped so many 1000s of people crossed that bridge and turn their pension into something and property more than anything is a very exciting proposition is that to stock market ups and downs and rollercoasters, and ebbs and flows or actually on an asset that pays you rent every month. I don't know.
Christian Rodwell 55:54
Yeah. So I mean, if we're peeking your interest here with pensions, then please do get in touch with us soon, we'll be happy to have a conversation with you about your pensions. But what's interesting, I think as well in their story is, is the dynamics of any partnership or family are very different, aren't they? And who would have thought that their pensions would almost bring them together in a way that they hadn't, hadn't experienced before. Because Toby, in some respect was very much the Lone Ranger getting on with his property deals. And I wouldn't mind betting Kevin, many people listening right now, there's a similar dynamic, whereby they're the one who's interested in wealth building or property, and perhaps the partner is and they're in the background supportive, but you know, not really interested. And that was kind of where Kate was right until she had her eyes opened with the power of SAS, and they brought their pensions together. And suddenly, it just sparked a different dynamic.
Speaker 2 56:49
And don't Yeah, it was fun to hear it. And I know, that was very powerful, from, you know, from Kate, that it did genuinely bring them together. But also you heard from Toby that there are ways that you can start to balance out the value of the pensions as well. And I love the point you made you said, you know, it's a SAS is a business. And while he might own 9010, or whatever the relationship was, we have to make a decision together. And I think that's a good thing. And for many people, husbands and wives is a perfect combination, as well as business partners and siblings even. So lots of lots of ways that I suppose historically, people see their pension as a, like a one person vehicle, you know, like paddling your own canoe, just one person, or all of a sudden, if you've got two or three or four and the maximum number is 11, which is pretty big family or smallish business, you've got turbo charge on the back end there, you've you've stuck an outboard motor on the vehicle, and off you go. And now you're, you're powering forward and you're using that money to give you access to build wealth, not in your 60s. But now and and I think it also means at some point you bring your children now I know Max is not old enough yet. But he will be. And when he's 18, he will be eligible to join. And that brings life lessons and other lessons into play as well. Not least the fact that was a sponge like smart lad, he's going to be picking up on what mama doing, generally in their life and in property and in business. So I think there's so many benefits that radiate from the simple concept awkwardly named, clunky by nature, but not clunky by benefits. You know, you got to get your head around it, I get it. But isn't that life? You know, whenever you build wealth, you have to learn new language, Chris, you know, we talk about the language of community and pillars and turning the wheel and all that we've even got the person who comments on until next time, my friend see all that stuff, right? Oh, good, fun stuff. But what's true though, is you have to learn new language in order to do a different job and accelerate your wealth. And whether that language in this case is Sass, the small self administered scheme, learn it, you know, go do some research on your own, have a conversation with us. But wherever you go explore it. If you've got a pension in your life, explore it, and then make a decision, whether you think it's right for you and make a decision whether you think we are right for you either way is fine. If the watermark and the tide level gets higher, because more people are doing better things for their wealth. I'm happy because the community of SAS owners will grow and some of those will find their way to us person. I'm grateful for that. And
Christian Rodwell 59:46
of course, all of this is learnable and the strategy they deployed are several strategies rolled into one really there that Toby talked us through, you know, may sound creative, complicated, but of course Toby had to be In somewhere, and now Toby is imparting that knowledge to members of wealth builders as a coach. He's delivering group sessions, which we really enjoy each month, which talk about creative property strategies. And we covered really the process a few weeks back in the Podcast, episode two to six, where we talked about the wheel of wealth. And the first step is always some education. So there's always a process to follow the education, the support the connections, and that's the same process to be followed. And he's just been turning the wheels and turning them very successfully with Kate by his side.
Speaker 2 1:00:31
And I know he's, he's doing other things, you know, in terms of title splitting and other more complex things. But the complexity isn't the reason not to do it, the complexities of reason to get curious. So it's really just about the pension brought money to the table, right? So you buy dilapidated property, well, why can't other people buy dilapidated property, but they need a mortgage, we can't get a mortgage on dilapidated property. So if you can buy a derelict dilapidated property, and your pension can buy it, because you're not taking on a mortgage, you're using your own money in your own pension life, and using that as a source of the mortgage, then you're underwriting it for yourself, and then you're removing the competitive edge of other people in the property community, you don't have cash. And what we know property owners is they run out of money before they run out of ambition. And, you know, you're you've got less competition, the more you can creatively finance and the more you can learn about different strategies. So it's self serving to learn more, you know, not just in from a confidence perspective, but you learn different strategies that have given you a potentially anyway, a higher ROI in terms of the return on your investment and the return on your intellect and a return on interaction. And if you're doing good work for society, return on impact. So many ROI is here, that we could get into if we chose to, that are so powerful that Toby touched on in the interview did with him. So we've
Christian Rodwell 1:02:01
talked about the transformative power of sass today, but it also showed some of those steps on that roadmap to financial security onwards to financial independence. And if you're curious, then head to wealth builders.co.uk Take a look around, you can catch up with all of our podcasts there, and get in touch with us as well. So we're always happy to have a discovery call so you can find all of the links on the wealth builders website, wealth builders.co.uk.
Speaker 2 1:02:27
And there's some SAS resources there anyway, isn't it? I mean, it's a whole tab because it's so popular. There's a whole tab on there. So you can go to the World Wealth builders website and click on the SAS resources and, you know, knock yourself out with the start of your journey to get more information.
Christian Rodwell 1:02:44
Absolutely. Okay, so that wraps up today's episode. Thanks for listening. As always, if you enjoyed it, please do hit that share button, send it to a friend, we would very much appreciate that. And Kevin, you and I will be back Same time, same place next week.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:58
We will indeed my friend until then. See you.
Speaker 1 1:03:04
We hope you enjoy today's episode. Don't forget that we are constantly updating our resources inside the wealth builders membership site to help you create, build and protect your wealth. Head over to wealth builders.co.uk/membership right now for free access. That's wealth builders.co.uk/membership